How To Use Innovation To Boost Therapist Productivity
Continuing our series on Innovation, this week Paul welcomes Mansoor Ahmed, CEO of Wiz Health. Mansoor's company has developed tools to tackle therapist burnout, increase productivity, and attract and retain staff. Tune in to learn how these tools are changing the game in these areas.
Full transcript
Generated from the episode audio and lightly edited for readability.
Good morning and welcome to another episode of Paul Martin's Crucial Conversations. Today we are real excited to continue in our series on innovation and how can innovation translate to growth and actually help to solve some of the biggest challenges that we are facing in the physical therapy industry today. And in that line, I am so excited to have with us someone I have known for many years, Mansoor Ahmed. And he is the CEO of Wiz Health. Mansoor, welcome. Thank you, Paul. Excited to be here with you.
Awesome. Awesome. Now as a background, Mansoor has extensive experience in both physical therapy operations where he worked with spectrum therapy consultants, a company we know very well, as well as a long history of successful healthc care IT. And he has achieved phenomenal success in both of those industries. And what we really want to hone in on today as it relates to innovation is how do we tackle innovatively challenges of therapist productivity? That's got to be everybody out there today has got to want to have information on how we tackle therapist productivity issues, therapist burnout, and how we can attract and retain staff and how Mansoor has developed a number of tools to tackle these issues.
So with that, let's jump in. Mansoor, you ready to go? Absolutely. All right. All right. So Mansoor again great long history in physical therapy operations. How important do you see growth both internally as well as externally for the overall success of an indatent outpatient physical therapy business? Well, I think both internal growth and external growth are critical especially when you're trying to attract potential acquirers. So, back in 2018, a close friend of mine, Sandra Terases, she came up to me and she was talking about the challenges she was having with her PT business.
She had grown the business since 2006 to about four clinics and she was thinking of actually shutting three of them down and focusing just on one clinic. And when I studied her business, I realized that she could actually grow the business. And that's how I became a co-owner of that business. And I also recall meeting you at a trade conference. And I asked you a question. I said, "How can we become attractive to a potential acquirer?" And I remember distinctly you told me two things. You said, "One, put in systems and processes and two, make sure you grow the business." And so we worked very closely with Elaine Thomas, one of your consultants, and she was phenomenal.
She gave us invaluable advice and we were able to not just improve productivity, but add several clinics. And as a result, last year we were able to sell the business and Tom Carden and your team did a great job of helping us navigate the sale and we were acquired by a private equity-backed PT company. And all this would not have happened had we not demonstrated strong internal and external growth. So I think it's imperative. So you had real world experience on this which is which is terrific and I appreciate your comments.
I really do. And I remember the conference I believe it was in Maryland Washington Washington I believe Washington DC I believe. And we were sitting at a roundt discussion. And Mansoor you said you asked me a question. I think there were eight people at that round table and you were absolutely the most curious. I think you asked me eight questions and between the other seven people they got in there one, but all very good questions and I knew that day that you guys would be successful and it just took a little time and so yeah, thank you for those comments and as always when we make that effort if the client makes the effort as well and you guys made gallant efforts to get to where you got.
Thank you Paul. Thank you for all your support and your help. Absolutely. Absolutely. So again, generally do you see innovation? I would hope as a healthcare IT guy you do, but and that it'll play a continued role in the growth and success of outpatient rehabilitation companies. Yes, I think so because if you look at the challenges that we are facing, we have tremendous margin pressure and on one hand we have providers demanding higher salaries and on the other hand we have payers continuing to implement reimbursement cuts making us jump through hoops to get paid.
And so these kind of margin pressures that we are facing can only be solved if we think outside the box, come up with innovative solutions and continue to serve our patients. That's the only way I see us surviving and thriving by adopting innovation. You know, it's interesting. [clears throat] you know the Medicare cuts have been put in place and so you know you ask and I'm getting [clears throat] many calls what are we going to do now you know we have these cuts we have the and I think what I'm hearing from you is we're going to fight and we're going to fight internally first because the external fight you know going to Washington trying to get the changes that we need yes we can make that fight and we can and we can we can hopefully at some point, but we cannot depend on winning that battle.
We got to look internally what we can do about it first. And I think, man, what I've seen you do and this leads us right into the next question is you've looked to utilize AI, one of the two biggest one of the one of the two biggest letters in the country today and in the world today. So how will this technology impact some of the challenges that we have especially the documentation burden that we see out there in the business today? Yeah. So Paul as we think about the documentation burden which is causing burnout it's imperative that we find a solution.
And if you think about how a PT documents, for example, an initial eval, they might take some measurements, type in some data points, and then once they finish seeing the patient, they go back and type out [snorts and clears throat] several pieces of information, assessment, plan, and it takes them 30 minutes after they have seen the patient, sometimes 25, 30 minutes to type about an initial evaluation. Now think about a different scenario. Just like we use Siri to send out a text message, we have now technology that we've built which can accurately take everything that a provider can dictate whether it's data points, whether it's templates, assessment plan, what have you, and accurately input that into the EMR.
So they can now do that in 7 to 8 minutes. So if you think about the amount of time that they are saving, it's huge. And none of the PTs who use our technology take work home anymore. They finish it during their working hours. So we have figured out a way now to alleviate the documentation burden. In fact, one of the PTs made a comment to me the other day. He said, "Uh, my wife likes the technology more than I do because she doesn't have to put up with me working at night." You know, that is truly solving the documentation burden.
And I think we found a way to do it. Yeah. You know, I urge all of you out there listening today to go to the Whizalth LLC website which really walks you through all the elements within Wiz Health Wiz Comply to show you how this technology really works. It's remarkable. I will just tell you that right now. It's remarkable. So Mansoor, what additional areas of an outpatient rehabilitation business do you think this will address and how will it continue to have to meet, you know, the changes that we're going to see in the future?
Yeah. So, Paul, I believe that a solution has to be a win for the patient. It has to be a win for the PT and it has to be a win for the owners. And the way I think about it is in terms of the patient that's what we are here for. If you think about what happens when you go and visit your physician, he spends so much time looking at the computer the laptop typing in data instead of listening to you. So one of the benefits of using AI technology is that most of our PTs who are using this technology are actually spending more time with patients because they are not sitting and typing into the laptop anymore.
So it's better patient care and that's a true win for the patients. If you look at the PTs, we had a PT who said, "Look, I've got a special needs kid and I spend time in the evenings typing out notes. I spend time in the weekends completing my notes." And so, she was so excited because she doesn't have to do that anymore. So, it's a win for her and the PTs because it's better life work life balance. Yeah. And it truly is a win for the clinics, the clinic owners because now they can use this tool as a as not just an employee retention tool but also to attract employees and attract pts.
They can then go back and tell their they can go to their HR department and tell them look we found a solution to the documentation burden. And so you don't have to so that a potential employee doesn't have to waste time typing, you know, notes anymore. And that makes it very attractive for potential employees. So it's a win for the patient, it's a win for the pts, and a win for the owners because they can attract better talent. And knowing a little bit about this, you know, I know that, you know, the professionals are going to use their phones and so with the ease of using their phones, which they use for every other aspect of their life, right?
How streamlined can that be to utilize their phones but not have to worry about, you know, all kinds of interruptions on that phone while they're using that technology on their phones? H how do you manage that? Yeah. So, the technology is extremely simple. It's a mobile app and it has their entire schedule on the app. So all they do is they select a patient and they dictate the note and the note within a few minutes shows up in the EMR. So it's very simple and easy to use.
Takes them just a couple of days to get used to it, right? [snorts] And if there are any interruptions, we have software which automatically stops the recording if they get an incoming call and then handles you know the files accordingly. So all that has been built into the tool itself, the mobile app itself. So you said a couple of minutes a therapist is able to dictate to their phone and you know a daily note andor initial evaluation is within minutes goes right to the EMR. Yes.
So what we have seen is that an initially eval might take you know seven to eight minutes to dictate. A daily note might just take a minute or two and once we finish the processing the data automatically goes into the EMR and the PTS go in review and sign off. So it's a very accurate and seamless process and our PTS just absolutely love it. Yeah. You know, one of the concerns out there every time you talk about new technology, innovation, technology is expensive. So walk me through how this technology will actually impact the bottom line of a PT company, not just a break even or so we get more, you know, we make it easier for the PTs, but we don't actually make any more money.
I don't think that's the case here. Walk us through what kind of return on investment they can see here. Sure. So [clears throat] let's imagine a PT clinic which has got a PT chain which has got 10 clinics and about two PTs per clinic. If each in our studies and with our clients, what we have seen is that pts can save anywhere from 60 to 90 minutes per day using this technology. And most of them were able to see at least one additional patient. So one additional patient per day translates to about 21 visits per month.
And so if you do the math very quickly and at assuming a $100 per visit as cash per visit, very quickly you can see that you can generate almost half a million dollars of additional revenue per year in this particular scenario. And so that is very significant because most of our costs tend to be fixed costs whether it's salaries or rent so on they tend to be fixed costs. So now when you generate incremental revenue, almost all of that goes to the bottom line. And when you're spending, let's say just less than $200 a month per PT for each of these for the technology itself, the ROI becomes significant.
Now in addition to that, think about this. If we were to see new patients, there is strong dem demand for our services. Well, I mean, you you've said that several times. So, if you can convert that those additional visits into new patients and use extenders to handle the additional visits properly. Now, you're going to see an additional revenue generation in addition to what we talked about. So this technology has the potential to significantly improve EBITDA of a small clinic. Yeah. Or a large clinic. That's what everybody wants to hear.
And the numbers I just extracted real quickly was $200 per therapist per month. Right. Right. Correct. Yep. 21 more patients per month. 200 divided into 2,000 I believe that's about a 10 times ROI 10 time return on investment. So yeah. Yeah. And and you also I meant to ask you as a followup are you guys seeing consistently that the learning curve on this to get up to efficiently being able to save that 60 to 90 minutes a day is a few days? Yes. A couple of days.
No more because all you're doing is you're thinking as you're dictating. So, so instead of typing, so there's a mental shift that you need to make and that takes just a couple of days and once you do it, you will never go back and our PTs have told us absolutely no way that they're going back to typing. Yeah. Yeah. You know, PTS out there of a variety of ages, right? I mean, you know, I'm in my late 50s. There's a lot of PTs out there in their late 50s.
I know, you know, and then there's also a lot of, you know, 22 year olds out there, right? Mansoor, the fact that the phone is something that we all use, whether you're 20 or you're 65, you're using your phone to do a lot of things, but [clears throat] as an older person, you know, this typing I I'm going to tell you know, I type, okay, but I don't type as good as my son or my daughter who are 26 and 28. They type so fast. When I was a PT, I dictated everything.
Does that do you see that some of the I don't want to use the word older, the more mature physical therapists out there that they're hey I'm able to go back now to dictating have you seen that as a positive or kind of kind of walk me through that conundrum there? [snorts] Yes. You know, the PT, the older PTs, they love it because they said, "This is what we used to do when we first started." And so, they love going back to this. Now, with the Gen Z young workforce that we have entering PT, they're so used to using the phone and using Siri, using Alexa that for them, it's almost a natural.
And so we've seen very strong adoption mainly because on both sides of the spectrum they're used to using their mo their mobile phone and it's a it's just a natural fit. Yeah. Yeah. I know I know you've you you've read these books and you know what I'm about to ask. But you know the crossing the chasm adoption curve. Mhm. Do you expect this product to follow the crossing the chasm adoption curve? Yes, absolutely. And I think the early adopters and the innovators will be those companies who really want to grow, who really want to retain their employees and they perhaps have a vision in mind where they're looking to exit in the next few years.
And so they need to demonstrate strong growth and this is a tool which will help them do that. And once we see those first adopters and innovators gradually the rest of the market will start adopting. But one thing which is very interesting Paul is if you look at how long it took Instagram to grow to a 100 million it took them two years. Chad GPT did that in two months. So the technology adoption, the rate of technology adoption has increased exponentially, right? And so I think that businesses are now willing to adopt technology at a much faster rate because they know that they'll let get left behind if they don't do that.
Yeah. It's it's almost a fear that we live with every day. And you know, for those of you out there with the crossing the chasm adoption curve, it's that break between the early adopters and let's call it going viral. All right. And and so and some of the some innovative thing technology that break can be years and years and years. And I think Mansoor what you're saying is at least what we're seeing in other tech technology other AI products that again if those early adopters are real successful it's going to take that gap and just shorten it way down.
Is that is that what I'm hearing you say? Absolutely. You're absolutely right Paul. Yeah. Awesome. Awesome. So some of the foreseeable benefits and challenges that you may see for some of these early adopters, what might those be? Yeah, I think the early adopters will be able to demonstrate growth internally. They will be able to attract talent and open new clinics and that's demonstrating growth externally. They'll be able to retain employees and that's very important for potential acquirers. So those are all the benefits that will acrue to an early adopter on the challenges side Paul this is just like any other initiative that you would implement.
So you have change management 101 which is you need the management team needs to set a vision objectives appoint champions you know monitor metrics celebrate successes and these are things these are basic things that need to happen in order for any project to be successful so I don't see any unique challenges to this but the basic methods of change management need to be in place. So that leadership structure being in place because and I think what I hear you saying is that if the leadership does not get very on board in right down to the to the patient to therapist level on how this works that the others may not follow as quickly as we would all hope.
Right? You always need to have you know management involvement. But by the same token it needs to be easy to implement. Any product needs to be easy to implement in order to achieve success. And what we have seen is that pts adopt this very quickly. You don't need any IT lift to do this. All you need is a username and password and that's pretty much it. So it's very easy to implement but you still need management involvement in order to be successful. Sure. Sure. So what do you think the risk is of a physical therapy business out there that might be listening today of them not using this technology in the future?
So Paul, you know, those PT companies who do not adopt technologies quickly will may fall behind. You know, their competitors may be able to attract their employees because their competitors may be using those technologies which will alleviate work life balance. So margin pressures aren't going away and but the opportunity that we have is that we have strong demand due to an aging population and other factors. So we need to find a way to utilize our capacity more effectively and if a PT company does not adopt these technologies they will not be able to do so and they will continue to fall behind continue to lose their employees and maybe even reduce their profitability.
So I think it's imperative that PT companies look at innovative tool to tools and find ways to implement them so that they can be successful both from an EBITDA standpoint and from an employee standpoint. Interesting because earlier you said that you know what could what could happen you know as companies move forward is that if they don't if they're not able to show you know that internal growth external growth and then with some of the additional staffing challenges retention challenges therapist hopping challenges that they could get left behind and you know Mansoor I know you're seeing this too this market right now while you know as you look at the economic predictions out there, you know, some are positive, some are not so positive, but they're not anything like what the predictors were saying back in, you know, early 2020 or late 2022 going into 23.
It's much more positive to than that, you know, with that. And so what you have out there right now is acquirers that are hungry again, but you have a large number of companies that were considered sellers in 2023 that never made it to the starting line and they are very quickly coming to the starting line right now. So, Mansoor, I think what you're saying is this could have them stand above some of the competitors that they're going to have because you want to be on the top of those acquirers list.
Would you agree with that? Absolutely. And Paul, I think that if companies can be innovative, adopt such technologies, show those show the growth results, show employee retention, they will become automatically very attractive and u and that's what you know the smaller companies are trying to do these days. Absolutely. Absolutely. Mansoor, I cannot tell you how great this has been to have you come on and [snorts] share this new technology that you guys have developed. And for all of you out there today who have listened in today, I know you've gotten a lot of benefit from this discussion.
If you would like to continue this discussion with myself or Mansoor and you'd like to talk about this or any other related topics, click below and let's talk. Mansoor, it was great having you. I appreciate you spending the time and I look forward to having you back on this show in the very near future. Paul, thank you so much for the invitation. Enjoyed talking to you. Thanks to everybody out there and we'll talk to you soon. Take care.
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